What is the difference between biodynamic and permaculture

Leila Rich. I know people who combine biodynamic and permaculture methods with great results. I'm personally more comfortable with permaculture's often rather prosaic approach. I went to a Steiner school and us kids were driven mad by the wafty, soft-focussed, Christian-ish with a sprinkling of pagan-lite grownups BUT, the healthiest farms I've ever seen are bd It may be a result of the intense observation and interaction bd growers have with their environments, or the preps concentrating X energies, or whatever.

If it works for them, that's good enough for me. I agree, gobeaguru. As long as the other systems you incorporated don't conflict with the principles and ethics of permaculture, they are probably compatible. For instance, I incorporate Biointensive techniques with permaculture, they seem compatible to me.

You must live by its principles and believe that the actions you are doing go beyond simple actions. As said above they do have success with the preperation applied to the land. Character- every decision you ever made culminating into the moment we call now. John Polk. I'm with Emerson - it seems like a pseudo religion, based on a lot of primitive mythologies.

I'm one of those people who can't detect "energies" and "planetary rhythms" or "spirits" etc, so those sorts of things just make me feel kind of sad and confused. I like permaculture because usually people don't drag all that stuff into it, and I have to admit it bugs me when they do. I have to enter the discussion, because this is not the first case when I see how these two strings of one flow are - to me it seems artificially - differed or even given to mutual opposition.

The universe is not esoteric, abstract or "spiritual" thing. It is a part of the nature. Or vice-versa. There is nothing spiritual, or nothing non-spiritual, material, on it. This is one matter.

The moon phases, sowing days, homeopathic and "homeopathic" gimmicks and so on are not esoteric and abstract, as well. If we really want to see the nature in all possible context to be able of long-term planning etc. It is very strange to my personal nature to make the border here.

And I think also, not many biodynamic farmers think dogmatically, as it was proposed here - you cannot think dogmatically as a farmer. If you say biodynamic approach is a dogma, you can say it of permaculture too - both have only their principles. As we know, ag. In biodynamic approach there was huge development in last 50 years, it is really not dogmatic. In terms of certification - it uses certification system, as classic ecological agriculture.

It serves very good to its purpose, in the world of non-permaculture setting still. To my opinion, it will blend more and more in the future and because biodynamic approach has really great results, it would be strange if permaculture settlements of the future would not implement functional biodynamic ways.

It really works. A difference I see is - not everyone can sense "spirits" but everyone can use the scientific method and obtain the same exact results from an experiment based on scientific principles. Science has never detected a "spirit" like it has detected x-rays and microbes, therefore, as far as science tells us, "spirits" fall outside the purview of science and are therefore "supernatural. OK, I can explain my point of view for the second time: I sense the "spirits", as I wrote, but as I wrote, I am far from explain them as something supranatural.

Everyone can sense spirits. Me or anybody else don't need to develop the system for "spirits" to be available also for other people, because it is already done, ready to use. What spiritual systems call spirits are laws of nature, everything what goes through us and what join us together with nature or with universe with planets, moon etc. What biodynamic agriculture uses are these simple laws, revealed by people who knows them sense them.

Nevermind if you get to them by more complicated, categorizing scientific way or without this intermediary. But some of them are still not available by scientific way our knowledge in that part is indefinite. The method by which everyone can sense what you call spirits is - to be healthy and to be open to what nature says.

Then, you even don't need many scientific methods to discover rules and principles. Scientific methods are very useful and of course, give us good basic knowledge to improve our live in some ways, and to understand processes in nature.

I use them and they are, in fact, my hobby. But as well as Bill Mollison says - rigid scientific approach can never understand the integrity and complexity of any LIVING system although it helps us to build many machines, clocks, measures etc. He also has many good suggestions why we cannot rely without fail on scientific experiments as closed, rigid systems, or even real facts and in the samy way as me, he proposes experience and experienced know-how instead, with science as a good help.

Or if you want to pull strings for the science, you can say it other way round, the meaning stays the same. The combination of both approach is best solution, and even better than best is to be able to feel, but above all practise them in one. To sense something, to sense spirits, means to be able to use our own senses. It is innate ability. You can only damage it slightly by unhelathy life. When you are a healthy man, you are a man. As a man, you are a inseparable part of nature, homo sapiens, mammal, animal made of components of stars , whatever.

When you are healthy, then you acquire informations from nature by simple way. As an example I can use organic let's say only existing or normal food and healthy environment: if you eat some years only organic food, breathe good air, lives in sufficiently non-toxic environment etc. Then you can distinguish many differences in patterns of nature simply by sensing.

If you eat more years only organic food, you should have this experience, animals have it as well, it is natural. It is very useful to know, how to use mechanics, solar panels, what is the chemistry of glands in gullet of earth-worm, or how to calculate efficiency of energy which you can explore in numbers. But without intuitive using body's senses thinking you can not apply them in the best way.

We develop always. Science and biodynamic approach are both parts of this development, of this progress, of our know-how. It is possible that to some of us one of these approaches is closer, and the second is more difficult. Possibly we can also detect some differences in this area between men and women but not sure about it in general view.

But both these approach are natural to our thinking, because they are natural to possibilities of our brains, are in the same level legitimate to use, and what's more, we can gain from them relevant improvements and stability in our environment. As an example, you used ultraviolet light. People who follow scientists warning against UV buy one by one cream to protect against UV and they think it is indispensable.

Other people don't and don't die of cancer. The fact is, that no one of scientist don't know exact course of absorbtion and chemistry of that radiation by our body. As a follower of scientific data you have to rely on transfered informations. Their way to us in most cases resembles the way of South African avocado to Europe. Very few of us have our own laboraty in home and can verify what we can get from scientific experiments in number of disciplines.

Most of what we think today, what we consider as conclusive scientific facts, we think because we have learned it in schools, because other people have thought it before us, other scientists discovered it, etc. In the middle ages, in this way, people believed in miasma. On this example we can also see, that the essence of such acquired knowledge is not false! But that it is not the whole. In this way, man invented antibiotics, pesticides and other human "helpers".

They represent the typical weakness of a strictly scientific approach - the lack of input. While the immediate perception of the neighborhood, which is the base of biodynamic agriculture such as life-long experimentation and work of unprecedented scope of Maria Thun and others , we can see faster the complex response of environment and we can avoid mistakes in the application of knowledge, which we know only from distant laboratories, where we don't have the other possibility than use the science as a faith.

If someone than really wants to match the results of our practical observations AGAINST scientific informations, call them spiritual and see in them esoteric far from common practise, it is obviously his right, rising from its own personal current position we cannot do anything else that make our opinions in relation to our own personal current position. Rudolf Steiner was the inventer of biodynamic approach, but mainly he was anthroposofist, which is much broader area of life than "only" garden.

He had its own philosophy. As a biodynamic farmer, you don't need to believe in Jesus, as he did. Believe me You will definitely need good natural connection with "spirits" of nature. To be able to feel them. Even to love them. It is also the main factor in biodynamic growing. But honestly, not many of biodynamic farmers does any proscription of scientific methods, they rather don't need them so much.

Even protagonists of shamanism don't do their work contrary to all contemporary scientific knowledge. In fact on the contrary. These rumors could only arise out from people who, in fact, don't know very much about actual practises, to my opinion.

It is all very life-oriented, nature-oriented system, whole-oriented system. I would probably compare it to many contemporaries who accuse ecologically thinking people of terrorism and blame them for their will to impose their own religion. Such dividing seems to me to be very non-permaculturistic.

Everyone from us can compare products of biodynamic growing and other organic growing. Differences are obvious. So why to deny it only because of prejudices? This is considerably less in dept than my molecular biophysics text books went into, but being part of the natural world we were able to study the effect and learn exactly what was going on.

However, it actually refers to four distinct areas: human, social, economic and environmental — known as the four pillars of sustainability. Human sustainability aims to maintain and improve the human capital in society. Because sustainable living embraces natural lighting and the appreciation of nature, it can also enhance happiness and lessen depression. Consumption of quality and non-toxic food products equally promotes good health.

Sustainability is important for many reasons including: Environmental Quality — In order to have healthy communities, we need clean air, natural resources, and a nontoxic environment. For example, many health issues are directly related to air and water quality. Renewable clean energy is probably the most obvious example of sustainability.

Here are three examples. Wind Energy: Wind turbines convert the kinetic energy in the wind into mechanical power. Sustainable profitability for a business means that an organisation provides a service or product that is both profitable and environmentally friendly. There have been some interesting stories about these young farmers running farms based on both Permaculture principles and some of Biodynamic farming's ideas.

Today in the local farmers market it is increasingly common to find farmers with diverse products grown in Permaculture systems under Biodynamic practices. They've been inspired by local farming gurus to start growing food in a holistic way that encompasses both a deep connection to the local ecology and to the greater mystical-spiritual aspects of life.

Their visionary ideas made me want to review both Permaculture and Biodynamics - and to think again about how they compare and contrast.

Biodynamic agriculture is a farming meets religio-philosophical practice. Biodynamic farming can be considered a kind of art farming. In one of his famous lectures on the ways of living in harmony with some of the spiritual aspects of the world that surrounds us, Steiner said "Die Kunst ist ewig, ihre Formen wandeln sich" , something like "The art is eternal, and only the shapes are changing".

What he is said to have meant is that the practice of farming is something that is all encompassing and has to work to incorporate the whole - the universe, all the community of farmers, animals, and nature. Thus all aspects of the farm and surrounding cosmology are considered carefully in Biodynamic agriculture; eg stars and moon phases as well as the breeds and species of plants. Permaculture literally permanent agriculture is a philosophy-design farming and living method that grew out of the books and Permaculture courses of Australian farmers and researchers Bill Mollison and David Holmgren.

They are systems or gardens modeled on patterns observed in nature. Structures, access and water systems are also designed to be energy efficient and well placed with a focus on the relationships between elements of a system rather than on individual components themselves.

David Holmgren once explained Permaculture quite neatly by saying "Traditional agriculture was labour intensive, industrial agriculture is energy intensive, and Permaculture-designed systems are information and design intensive. Biodynamic farming has restrictions on chemical and intensive farming methods, while Permaculture relies on good planning and the know-how and sensibility of the system's farmers and communities.

They share a lot in common in terms of culture. Biodynamics has more of a structured community - there are groups that inspect and certify 'Biodynamic' or 'Demeter' foods. There are also many communities, schools, and businesses that are tied in with the Biodynamic movement.

With Permaculture, there are legal limits on who can offer the specialised courses - one first needs to have completed a PDC Permaculture Design Course. But the word Permaculture itself is not regulated in any way. Both farming methods have a strong community of followers dedicated to those philosophies, and many consider their participation a primary part of their lives.